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Orin Eman wrote:
We don't really have enough information to draw any
real conclusions...
There was also an indication that the cyclist was
crossing outside of
the crosswalk - if so, how far, and was there a
crosswalk signal and
was
it green?
On the other hand, if you drive in poor visibility and
hit something in
front of you, you are probably driving too fast for
the conditions...
-------------------------------------------------
I agree with you that we don't have enough information
to draw conclusions.
I read the crosswalk and helmet statements as spin
control from a news organization trying to drum up
sympathy for the driver. There was not enough
information in the story to give them context, so the
author wants us to project our own. Here's mine.
The collision apparently occured at an intersection.
How often do you use crosswalks when riding? I
generally don't. I ride through intersections in the
appropriate lane because I would have to leave and
re-enter the normal flow path to use a crosswalk. I
interpreted the crosswalk comment to imply that the
cyclist was going through an intersection to the right
of the Navigator which was making a right turn. Was
the cyclist in a bike lane which gave her a false
sense of security?
If the cyclist had only been wearing a helmet, the
Navigator would have bounced off her, sustaing massive
damage and injuring the driver - all sarcasm intended.
This situation doesn't sound like one where the helmet
would have had much, if any, affect. But we really
don't know.
The cyclist sounds like she was experienced, so she
probably wasn't doing something stupid. But we really
don't know.
richard
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What bothers me is the assestion that the driver did everything
correctly. I would have thought it goes without saying that if
you hit another vehicle in the rear you must have done
something wrong.
At the very least I hope the Henry's insurance company is
forced to pay a large sum to Karola Stede's family. (Although
I know this won't bring her back to life.) My understanding is
that in these matters legal culpability and moral culpability
are two different things. Of course, it's still not clear to
me why Mrs. Henry is not legally culpable - other than being
the wife of the Lt. Governer.
Fred Rednor - Arlington, Virginia
--- Perry Bessas <pbc@bessasandackerman.com> wrote:
> Update for those interested:
>
> >Charges are unlikely, police spokeswoman Helene Kramer said
> yesterday.
> >
> >"Heather French Henry was doing everything correct. This is
> simply a
> >tragic accident," Kramer said. "If there was anything the
> motorist
> >did incorrectly, we would certainly file charges."
>
> Article link:
>
>
http://www.courier-journal.com/localnews/2003/10/14ky/met-back-cyclist1014-2338.html
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/qvl8
>
>
> Perry
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Richard Hargrove wrote, of the collision between a Jane Avergae and wife
of Lt. Gov.
>If the cyclist had only been wearing a helmet, the Navigator would have
>bounced off her, sustaing massive damage and injuring the driver - all
>sarcasm intended. This situation doesn't sound like one where the helmet
>would have had much, if any, affect. But we really don't know.
>
>The cyclist sounds like she was experienced, so she probably wasn't doing
>something stupid. But we really don't know.
Nope. And speaking as a former journalist who cut his teeth on this sort of
story, I can say it was missing a lot of information that is required in a
standard police report. The C-J owes a lot more to its readers than blowing
off the specifics and, in effect, saying "trust us."
Will
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Dear Bobs--
I got on my bike tonight and went down to the place where Karola Stede was
killed. It was around 6:15, near sunset. I rode down from the Highlands,
through cool Kentucky fall air, over leaves still soggy from rain that fell
today. Riding the short distance through Cherokee Park, I traced the same
approach Karola made to the intersection of Lexington and Grinstead. I crossed
where she crossed, and parked my bike on the sidewalk there. I surveyed the
area, read a few Psalms, and sat down.
I came to pray. To pray and to grieve. I prayed for Karola, a soul taken too
soon from us. I prayed for the drivers at the intersection, who sped on, eyes
squinting, over the black asphalt spray-painted orange with police notes about
the accident. I prayed for all of us cyclists, who every day get on our bikes,
some as a way to get to work, some as a way to get to play, some as a protest in
a nation consumed by fuel addiction.
May Karola?s friends and family find peace and strength to cope with such
intense pain.
May Louisville drivers be aware of all the vehicles on the road.
May cyclists continue to bear witness, even in the face of great loss, to a
sane, redemptive form of transportation.
Reverend David E. Dillard
Louisville 40205
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So, David, since it was very near the time of the collision, did you cross
the street, get into the left hand turn lane, and determine if you could see
what the driver of the SUV saw, with the sun in her face?
John in Boise
----- Original Message -----
From: <dedillard@netzero.com>
To: <internet-bob@bikelist.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 7:11 PM
Subject: [BOB] Cyclist killed in collision with SUV
>
> Dear Bobs--
>
> I got on my bike tonight and went down to the place where Karola Stede was
killed. It was around 6:15, near sunset. I rode down from the Highlands,
through cool Kentucky fall air, over leaves still soggy from rain that fell
today. Riding the short distance through Cherokee Park, I traced the same
approach Karola made to the intersection of Lexington and Grinstead. I
crossed where she crossed, and parked my bike on the sidewalk there. I
surveyed the area, read a few Psalms, and sat down.
>
> I came to pray. To pray and to grieve. I prayed for Karola, a soul taken
too soon from us. I prayed for the drivers at the intersection, who sped
on, eyes squinting, over the black asphalt spray-painted orange with police
notes about the accident. I prayed for all of us cyclists, who every day
get on our bikes, some as a way to get to work, some as a way to get to
play, some as a protest in a nation consumed by fuel addiction.
>
> May Karola?s friends and family find peace and strength to cope with such
intense pain.
> May Louisville drivers be aware of all the vehicles on the road.
> May cyclists continue to bear witness, even in the face of great loss, to
a sane, redemptive form of transportation.
>
> Reverend David E. Dillard
> Louisville 40205
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - NetZero HiSpeed!
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Will Rodger wrote:
>And speaking as a former journalist who cut his teeth on this sort of
>story, I can say it was missing a lot of information that is required in a
>standard police report.
Will,
I don't want to you put on the spot but would you care to elaborate?
I'm thinking that a letter to The C-J asking them to follow up on
details that were left out of the original articles might be worth a
try. I honestly don't know if I'll pursue it but, if I do, I wouldn't
mind some ammunition.
Perry
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I also agree that there is a disturbing lack of information besides the
affirmation of the lack of culpability on the part of the driver. For
some reason, this story grabbed my attention and I've been
reading/searching for as much info as I can find.
The driver was westbound (into the sun) and turned left (south). The
bicyclist was 'crossing outside the crosswalk', implying that she was
eastbound. The driver had a green light. Therefore, I deduce that the
driver turned left across the flow of oncoming traffic, which included
a bicyclist whom the driver did not see. This seems to constitute
failure to yield to oncoming traffic at the least. I presume that the
statements about the cyclist not being in the crosswalk are to
eliminate the possibility of the driver hitting somebody in a
crosswalk, which immediately makes the driver culpable.
However, it sure looks to me like the bicycle is not being considered
as a vehicle here.
Disturbing.
B
On Tuesday, Oct 14, 2003, at 07:24 America/Denver, Richard Hargrove
wrote:
> Orin Eman wrote:
>
> We don't really have enough information to draw any
> real conclusions...
>
> There was also an indication that the cyclist was
> crossing outside of
> the crosswalk - if so, how far, and was there a
> crosswalk signal and
> was
> it green?
--
Brian Griffith
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I wrote:
>>And speaking as a former journalist who cut his teeth on this sort of
>>story, I can say it was missing a lot of information that is required in a
>>standard police report.
>
Perry said:
>I don't want to you put on the spot but would you care to elaborate? I'm
>thinking that a letter to The C-J asking them to follow up on details that
>were left out of the original articles might be worth a try. I honestly
>don't know if I'll pursue it but, if I do, I wouldn't mind some ammunition.
I'd say they need to tell us at least what the PD report said -- but -- I
see the latest article says that they are awaiting its release, which seems
OK. Excessive delay should send up flags.
Odds are the police and CJ will both do the right thing eventually.
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"The driver was westbound (into the sun) and turned left (south). The
bicyclist was 'crossing outside the crosswalk', implying that she was
eastbound. The driver had a green light. Therefore, I deduce that the
driver turned left across the flow of oncoming traffic, which included
a bicyclist whom the driver did not see. This seems to constitute
failure to yield to oncoming traffic at the least. "
There was some information that suggested that she was turning left in
accordance with a left turn green light, in which case she would not be
failing to yield to oncoming traffic. There is FAR to little information for
folks to making the kind of accusations and conclusions that seem to be
running rampant.
John in Boise
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Griffith" <beerdrinker@comcast.net>
To: <internet-bob@bikelist.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: [BOB] re: Cyclist killed in collision with SUV
> I also agree that there is a disturbing lack of information besides the
> affirmation of the lack of culpability on the part of the driver. For
> some reason, this story grabbed my attention and I've been
> reading/searching for as much info as I can find.
> The driver was westbound (into the sun) and turned left (south). The
> bicyclist was 'crossing outside the crosswalk', implying that she was
> eastbound. The driver had a green light. Therefore, I deduce that the
> driver turned left across the flow of oncoming traffic, which included
> a bicyclist whom the driver did not see. This seems to constitute
> failure to yield to oncoming traffic at the least. I presume that the
> statements about the cyclist not being in the crosswalk are to
> eliminate the possibility of the driver hitting somebody in a
> crosswalk, which immediately makes the driver culpable.
> However, it sure looks to me like the bicycle is not being considered
> as a vehicle here.
> Disturbing.
> B
> On Tuesday, Oct 14, 2003, at 07:24 America/Denver, Richard Hargrove
> wrote:
>
> > Orin Eman wrote:
> >
> > We don't really have enough information to draw any
> > real conclusions...
> >
> > There was also an indication that the cyclist was
> > crossing outside of
> > the crosswalk - if so, how far, and was there a
> > crosswalk signal and
> > was
> > it green?
> --
> Brian Griffith
>
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John--
It's likely that neither the driver (looking into the sun) nor the
cyclist(looking down the wrong street --Grinstead instead of to the right down
Lexington-- and in haste to catch up with her friend) saw
each other. You'd probably have to see the intersection to understand. From
the point of view of the driver, you really can't see anything that time of day.
Same thing goes for sunrise going in the opposite direction. I try to do my
commute before or after sunrise, and I avoid that intersection.
I guess I'm so worked up about it because it's less than a mile from my
house, and I've had my own vehicle vs. cyclist incidents. It's like nobody ever
sees us.
Regards,
David
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I probably shouldn't continue to beat this topic into
the ground, but, the story made television on
Entertainment Tonight. Most of what was said was what
has been discussed on this list. They said Heather
Henry 'immediately called her husband...(who) is also
a trauma surgeon who attempted to treat the victim'.
The story was largely an interview with Steve Henry
that ended with him saying 'Heather's my wife and I
feel very sorry for her because there's nothing that
you can do when someone darts in front of you, there's
nothing you can do about it, and she'll live with that
the rest of her life.'
The continuing seemingly public lack of compassion for
Karola Stede that was mentioned early on in this
thread still strikes me as peculiar.
-John
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John P quotes :
> Steve Henry
>that ended with him saying 'Heather's my wife and I
>feel very sorry for her because there's nothing that
>you can do when someone darts in front of you, there's
>nothing you can do about it, and she'll live with that
>the rest of her life.'
And that may be the end of it. We don't know what happened yet, but
sometimes people do go where they should not be. As fragmentary as the
reporting has been, it could be Stede just wandered into the lane.
>The continuing seemingly public lack of compassion for
>Karola Stede that was mentioned early on in this
>thread still strikes me as peculiar.
Peds and cagers often fare no better. We still don't have the details we
need on this one...
Will
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Dwight--
As I understand it, she was riding in the crosswalk. She may have left the
boundaries of the crosswalk when she sensed she was in danger, but she started
there, as non vehicular traffic. I doubt she paid attention to the don't walk
signal, which indeed she should have. But there are a lot of things that should
have been done. Judgment errors were made on both sides, and perhaps Karola
made more than Heather did. None of this really diminishes the tragedy of it
all. If anything it makes it more tragic.
Regards,
David
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In the city I live in (Longmont, CO) there are left turn lanes at the
majority of the intersections. (This has ruined people's ability to make
left turns at the intersections without them, but that is another, OT
subject.) I regularly see both bicyclists and pedestrians trying to cross as
soon as the left turn arrow changes, not waiting for green light for going
straight, or for the walk sign to change. Then the cars turning left almost
hit them. I don't know if that is what happened, but, if it is, the cyclist
ran a red light. If that is what happened, the driver would not be charged
in the accident.
I see a lot of people, drivers, cyclists, and pedestrians who don't
understand how traffic flow and traffic laws work, or don't follow the laws
and common sense actions they should. As has been stated, we should get the
facts before judging, or we are no better than drivers who automatically
assume that the cyclist is to blame.
Steve
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