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Someone mentioned that a $1000 randonneur bike, if made available to the
masses, would be an excellent alternative to several different types of
current models - hybrids, city bikes, certain road bikes, etc.
In a similar vein, I would love to see a $1200 steel randonneur bike, and
being a randonneur bike of course it would be equipped with full-coverage
fenders, permanent lighting front & rear (with concealed wiring), a nice
French bend in the fork, 650B 42mm tires, a leather saddle, steel toe clips,
a frame-mounted pump, randonneur bars and front & rear racks.
To meet that price point it would probably be a Taiwanese tig-welded frame,
but I think it would catch on. Of course Bicycling Magazine wouldn't be able
to figure it out!
Of course the general public (and most bike shops) would need to be educated
on the merits of such a general-purpose machine.
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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">Someone mentioned that a $1000 randonneur bike, =
if made available to the masses, would be an excellent alternative to sever=
al different types of current models - hybrids, city bikes, certain road bi=
kes, etc.=A0
<div><br></div><div>In a similar vein, I would love to see a $1200 steel ra=
ndonneur bike, and being a randonneur bike of course it would be equipped w=
ith full-coverage fenders, permanent lighting front & rear (with concea=
led wiring), a nice French bend in the fork, 650B 42mm tires, a leather sad=
dle, steel toe clips, a frame-mounted pump, randonneur bars and front &=
rear racks.=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>To meet that price point it would probably be a Taiwane=
se tig-welded frame, but I think it would catch on. Of course Bicycling Mag=
azine wouldn't be able to figure it out!</div><div><br></div><div>
Of course the general public (and most bike shops) would need to be educate=
d on the merits of such a general-purpose machine.=A0</div></div>
<p></p>
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see Sean at Rawland http://www.rawlandcycles.blogspot.com/
Only thing even close... soon ( we hope) to be on the market.
~Mike
On Apr 5, 5:21=A0pm, "David H. Diette" <rollingto...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Someone mentioned that a $1000 randonneur bike, if made available to the
> masses, would be an excellent alternative to several different types of
> current models - hybrids, city bikes, certain road bikes, etc.
>
> In a similar vein, I would love to see a $1200 steel randonneur bike, and
> being a randonneur bike of course it would be equipped with full-coverage
> fenders, permanent lighting front & rear (with concealed wiring), a nice
> French bend in the fork, 650B 42mm tires, a leather saddle, steel toe cli=
ps,
> a frame-mounted pump, randonneur bars and front & rear racks.
>
> To meet that price point it would probably be a Taiwanese tig-welded fram=
e,
> but I think it would catch on. Of course Bicycling Magazine wouldn't be a=
ble
> to figure it out!
>
> Of course the general public (and most bike shops) would need to be educa=
ted
> on the merits of such a general-purpose machine.
--=20
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On 4/5/2011 6:21 PM, David H. Diette wrote:
> Of course Bicycling Magazine wouldn't be able to figure it out!
>
> Of course the general public (and most bike shops) would need to be
> educated on the merits of such a general-purpose machine.
> --
As someone else pointed out in another thread, you would need to sell a
story, adventure, or "sizzle" in order to sell the bike. That's the
first "hook." Secondly, the bike would have to impress a potential
buyer/rider in the first 60 seconds of a parking lot test ride.
Somehow, I don't think that an ad campaign of "Sleep Deprivation &
Convenience Store Food Is Fun!" would sway too many people away from
modern road bikes.
Eye it.
Try it.
Buy it.
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To meet that price point, and include all the accessories that you
mentioned, it would have to be a very cheaply made frame with very low end
components. Would this really appeal to many people? I would think that
most folks that are serious enough about cycling to be interested in such a
beast, would want something above entry level frame and components. The
Surly LHT comes in at about that price and includes none of the features
that you list. To add them, I think you're going to be well north of $1,500
and perhaps getting close to $2k.
John
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:21 PM, David H. Diette <rollingtones@gmail.com>wrote:
> Someone mentioned that a $1000 randonneur bike, if made available to the
> masses, would be an excellent alternative to several different types of
> current models - hybrids, city bikes, certain road bikes, etc.
>
> In a similar vein, I would love to see a $1200 steel randonneur bike, and
> being a randonneur bike of course it would be equipped with full-coverage
> fenders, permanent lighting front & rear (with concealed wiring), a nice
> French bend in the fork, 650B 42mm tires, a leather saddle, steel toe clips,
> a frame-mounted pump, randonneur bars and front & rear racks.
>
> To meet that price point it would probably be a Taiwanese tig-welded frame,
> but I think it would catch on. Of course Bicycling Magazine wouldn't be able
> to figure it out!
>
> Of course the general public (and most bike shops) would need to be
> educated on the merits of such a general-purpose machine.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "internet-bob" group.
> To post to this group, send email to internet-bob@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> internet-bob+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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>
--
John Wood
Open Road Bicycles
Missoula, Montana, USA
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To meet that price point, and include all the accessories that you mentione=
d, it would have to be a very cheaply made frame with very low end componen=
ts.=A0 Would this really appeal to many people?=A0 I would think that most =
folks that are serious enough about cycling to be interested in such a beas=
t, would want something above entry level frame and components.=A0 The Surl=
y LHT comes in at about that price and includes none of the features that y=
ou list.=A0 To add them, I think you're going to be well north of $1,50=
0 and perhaps getting close to $2k.<br>
<br><br>John<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:21 =
PM, David H. Diette <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:rollingtones@gm=
ail.com">rollingtones@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid=
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">Someone mentioned that a $1000 randonneur bike, =
if made available to the masses, would be an excellent alternative to sever=
al different types of current models - hybrids, city bikes, certain road bi=
kes, etc.=A0
<div><br></div><div>In a similar vein, I would love to see a $1200 steel ra=
ndonneur bike, and being a randonneur bike of course it would be equipped w=
ith full-coverage fenders, permanent lighting front & rear (with concea=
led wiring), a nice French bend in the fork, 650B 42mm tires, a leather sad=
dle, steel toe clips, a frame-mounted pump, randonneur bars and front &=
rear racks.=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>To meet that price point it would probably be a Taiwane=
se tig-welded frame, but I think it would catch on. Of course Bicycling Mag=
azine wouldn't be able to figure it out!</div><div><br></div><div>
Of course the general public (and most bike shops) would need to be educate=
d on the merits of such a general-purpose machine.=A0</div></div>
<p></p>
-- <br><font color=3D"#888888">
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</font></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>John Wood<br>Ope=
n Road Bicycles<br>Missoula, Montana, USA<br>
<p></p>
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On Apr 5, 7:47=A0pm, John Wood <braxto...@gmail.com> wrote:
> To meet that price point, and include all the accessories that you
> mentioned, it would have to be a very cheaply made frame with very low en=
d
> components. =A0Would this really appeal to many people? =A0I would think =
that
> most folks that are serious enough about cycling to be interested in such=
a
> beast, would want something above entry level frame and components. =A0Th=
e
> Surly LHT comes in at about that price and includes none of the features
> that you list. =A0To add them, I think you're going to be well north of $=
1,500
> and perhaps getting close to $2k.
>
Agree, this wish list is just that, a dream at $1200. I would be
closer to $2k and wouldn't be surprised if it ended up closer to
$2.5K. Good Luck!
--=20
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Not to mention: Most people with enough knowledge to be into all that stuff=
would either spend more and get something nicer or cobble an approximation=
for much cheaper.
John Vu
Los Angeles, Calif.
On Apr 5, 2011, at 7:47 PM, John Wood <braxton72@gmail.com> wrote:
> To meet that price point, and include all the accessories that you mentio=
ned, it would have to be a very cheaply made frame with very low end compon=
ents. Would this really appeal to many people? I would think that most fo=
lks that are serious enough about cycling to be interested in such a beast,=
would want something above entry level frame and components. The Surly LH=
T comes in at about that price and includes none of the features that you l=
ist. To add them, I think you're going to be well north of $1,500 and perh=
aps getting close to $2k.
>=20
>=20
> John
>=20
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:21 PM, David H. Diette <rollingtones@gmail.com> =
wrote:
> Someone mentioned that a $1000 randonneur bike, if made available to the =
masses, would be an excellent alternative to several different types of cur=
rent models - hybrids, city bikes, certain road bikes, etc.=20
>=20
> In a similar vein, I would love to see a $1200 steel randonneur bike, and=
being a randonneur bike of course it would be equipped with full-coverage =
fenders, permanent lighting front & rear (with concealed wiring), a nice Fr=
ench bend in the fork, 650B 42mm tires, a leather saddle, steel toe clips, =
a frame-mounted pump, randonneur bars and front & rear racks.=20
>=20
> To meet that price point it would probably be a Taiwanese tig-welded fram=
e, but I think it would catch on. Of course Bicycling Magazine wouldn't be =
able to figure it out!
>=20
> Of course the general public (and most bike shops) would need to be educa=
ted on the merits of such a general-purpose
--=20
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<html><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Not to mention: Most people with enoug=
h knowledge to be into all that stuff would either spend more and get somet=
hing nicer or cobble an approximation for much cheaper.</div><div><br></div=
><div>John Vu</div><div>Los Angeles, Calif.</div><div><br><br>On Apr 5, 201=
1, at 7:47 PM, John Wood <<a href=3D"mailto:braxton72@gmail.com">braxton=
72@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><div>To meet that price point, and include all the accessories that you =
mentioned, it would have to be a very cheaply made frame with very low end =
components. Would this really appeal to many people? I would th=
ink that most folks that are serious enough about cycling to be interested =
in such a beast, would want something above entry level frame and component=
s. The Surly LHT comes in at about that price and includes none of th=
e features that you list. To add them, I think you're going to be wel=
l north of $1,500 and perhaps getting close to $2k.<br>
<br><br>John<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:21 =
PM, David H. Diette <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:rollingtones@gm=
ail.com"><a href=3D"mailto:rollingtones@gmail.com">rollingtones@gmail.com</=
a></a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-l=
eft: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">Someone mentioned that a $1000 randonneur bike, =
if made available to the masses, would be an excellent alternative to sever=
al different types of current models - hybrids, city bikes, certain road bi=
kes, etc.
<div><br></div><div>In a similar vein, I would love to see a $1200 steel ra=
ndonneur bike, and being a randonneur bike of course it would be equipped w=
ith full-coverage fenders, permanent lighting front & rear (with concea=
led wiring), a nice French bend in the fork, 650B 42mm tires, a leather sad=
dle, steel toe clips, a frame-mounted pump, randonneur bars and front &=
rear racks. </div>
<div><br></div><div>To meet that price point it would probably be a Taiwane=
se tig-welded frame, but I think it would catch on. Of course Bicycling Mag=
azine wouldn't be able to figure it out!</div><div><br></div><div>
Of course the general public (and most bike shops) would need to be educate=
d on the merits of such a general-purpose</div></div></blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>
<p></p>
-- <br />
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On Tue, 2011-04-05 at 20:24 -0700, John Huan Vu wrote:
> Not to mention: Most people with enough knowledge to be into all that
> stuff would either spend more and get something nicer or cobble an
> approximation for much cheaper.
I'm not sure I can see how. If you buy your components retail, a
complete component group will run $1200 or more without a frame.
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My point is this:
Look at what $1200 buys in a mountain bike.
If the industry had the need, they could build a very nice $1200 randonneur=
bicycle, through economy of scale.
But unless the American public catches on to these bikes the way mountain b=
ikes did, the bike industry has zero incentive as there is a very small dem=
and.
In other words, to get this bike onto the market you would need a demand me=
asured in the millions of consumers, not thousands.
It has already happened with MTBs, and until very, very recently the US mar=
ket is divided up into twitchy road bikes and MTBs. The newcomers are hybri=
ds and even more recently, city bikes.
A randonneur bike could replace most hybrid, city and even a few road and M=
TB designs. That's why they are known as general-purpose or all-around bike=
s. And they fill the role of trailer-pullers quite well, partially negating=
the need for the Big Dummy and suchlike.
Because they fill so many diverse roles, the demand for millions of them is=
there, although as I said before, the mass market needs to be educated on =
their awesomeness before they are built in anything more than a niche quant=
ity.=20
Sincerely,
David H.
--=20
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On 4/5/2011 8:21 PM, David H. Diette wrote:
> In a similar vein, I would love to see a $1200 steel randonneur bike,
> and being a randonneur bike of course it would be equipped with
> full-coverage fenders, permanent lighting front & rear (with concealed
> wiring), a nice French bend in the fork, 650B 42mm tires, a leather
> saddle, steel toe clips, a frame-mounted pump, randonneur bars and front
> & rear racks.
>
> To meet that price point it would probably be a Taiwanese tig-welded
> frame, but I think it would catch on. Of course Bicycling Magazine
> wouldn't be able to figure it out!
>
> Of course the general public (and most bike shops) would need to be
> educated on the merits of such a general-purpose machine.
Rando bikes are way too specialized for my tastes. IMO, they're really
just as hyper-specialized as road racers and full blown touring bikes.
My personal beef with the rando bike concept is it's fully integrated
design, including things like the integrated permanent lighting you
mention and rando style racks. I'll easily grant that all the things
that make a rando bike a better choice for rando riding are real, honest
to goodness improvements. Such is specialization.
For me, general purpose means I can easily reconfigure the bike to a
different purpose. Can the bike be configured for dirt road riding?
For commuting? For citizen level racing? For (reasonably light) loaded
touring? For training? For club rides and events?
To my judgment, that sort of versatility is realized in the classic
sport tourer design. That's a bike that could be put on the market for
$1000 but isn't currently.
But I think it wouldn't sell. Specialization sells. A $1200 (or $1500)
rando bike would slot into garage nicely for many US riders right next
to their $1500 race bike, $1200 touring bike, and $1700 full sus moutain
bike. I'm probably forgetting 4 or 5 other kinds of bikes that any
reasonable rider really needs. We're well trained consumers.
Acquisition of specialized toys is the path to fulfillment.
--
-Dave "Pinnah" Mann, Boston, MA
==================================================================
DAVE'S NORDIC BACKCOUNTRY SKIING PAGE
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/dirtbag.html
------------------------------------------------------------------
THE BIKE GEOMETRY PROJECT - A community effort to document geometries
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/dirtbag-bikes/geometry-project.html
==================================================================
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> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:21 PM, David H. Diette <rollingtones@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> In a similar vein, I would love to see a $1200 steel randonneur bike, an=
d
>> being a randonneur bike of course it would be equipped with full-coverag=
e
>> fenders, permanent lighting front & rear (with concealed wiring), a nice
>> French bend in the fork, 650B 42mm tires, a leather saddle, steel toe cl=
ips,
>> a frame-mounted pump, randonneur bars and front & rear racks.
>> To meet that price point it would probably be a Taiwanese tig-welded
>> frame
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 10:47 PM, John Wood <braxton72@gmail.com> wrote:
> To meet that price point, and include all the accessories that you
> mentioned, it would have to be a very cheaply made frame with very low en=
d
> components.
Or, it would have to be made by a large (bike industry definition of
"large") company. I think someone has already mentioned economy of
scale. Raleigh is currently offering the Port Townsend for about a
grand. It comes with fenders, front rack, barcons, compact double,
clips and straps. There's no technical reason they couldn't have
built this bike with 650b wheels and a different fork bend. A
sidewall dynamo with low-end lights could keep this under $1200. With
the current ridiculous leather saddle prices, I think they'd be hard
pressed to include it at that price point.
The Trek Belleville has all of the parts David wants, sans leather
saddle and toe clips, including a dynamo hub and internal wiring for
about $700. It also has a single chain ring and 3-speed hub, though
I'm unconvinced this configuration is significantly less expensive
than a low-end compact double setup. At the least, it's not $500 less
expensive. If Trek can make a profit on that bike at that price, they
could certainly make a profit on a similarly equipped randonneuse for
$1200.
--=20
Scott Loveless
http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/
=A0 =A0 __o
=A0 _'\<,_
=A0(*)/=A0 (*)
--=20
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--0015174be8c0b8517a04a0414196
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Here you go. No fenders though.
http://www.bikeman.com/BK8214.html?utm_source=GoogleBase&utm_medium=GoogleBase&utm_campaign=GoogleBase
On
Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 6:46 AM, Scott Loveless <sdloveless@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:21 PM, David H. Diette <rollingtones@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> In a similar vein, I would love to see a $1200 steel randonneur bike,
> and
> >> being a randonneur bike of course it would be equipped with
> full-coverage
> >> fenders, permanent lighting front & rear (with concealed wiring), a nice
> >> French bend in the fork, 650B 42mm tires, a leather saddle, steel toe
> clips,
> >> a frame-mounted pump, randonneur bars and front & rear racks.
> >> To meet that price point it would probably be a Taiwanese tig-welded
> >> frame
>
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 10:47 PM, John Wood <braxton72@gmail.com> wrote:
> > To meet that price point, and include all the accessories that you
> > mentioned, it would have to be a very cheaply made frame with very low
> end
> > components.
>
> Or, it would have to be made by a large (bike industry definition of
> "large") company. I think someone has already mentioned economy of
> scale. Raleigh is currently offering the Port Townsend for about a
> grand. It comes with fenders, front rack, barcons, compact double,
> clips and straps. There's no technical reason they couldn't have
> built this bike with 650b wheels and a different fork bend. A
> sidewall dynamo with low-end lights could keep this under $1200. With
> the current ridiculous leather saddle prices, I think they'd be hard
> pressed to include it at that price point.
>
> The Trek Belleville has all of the parts David wants, sans leather
> saddle and toe clips, including a dynamo hub and internal wiring for
> about $700. It also has a single chain ring and 3-speed hub, though
> I'm unconvinced this configuration is significantly less expensive
> than a low-end compact double setup. At the least, it's not $500 less
> expensive. If Trek can make a profit on that bike at that price, they
> could certainly make a profit on a similarly equipped randonneuse for
> $1200.
>
> --
> Scott Loveless
> http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/
> __o
> _'\<,_
> (*)/ (*)
>
> --
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--
Where did the spring go?
Where did my hormones go?
Where did my energy go?
Where did my go go?
Where did the pleasure go?
Where did my hair go?
-- Ray Davies
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Here you go.=A0 No fenders though.<br><br><a href=3D"http://www.bikeman.com=
/BK8214.html?utm_source=3DGoogleBase&utm_medium=3DGoogleBase&utm_ca=
mpaign=3DGoogleBase">http://www.bikeman.com/BK8214.html?utm_source=3DGoogle=
Base&utm_medium=3DGoogleBase&utm_campaign=3DGoogleBase</a><br>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 6:46 AM, Scott Lovele=
ss <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:sdloveless@gmail.com">sdloveless=
@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); p=
adding-left: 1ex;">
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:21 PM, David H. Diette <<a href=3D"mailto:=
rollingtones@gmail.com">rollingtones@gmail.com</a>><br>
<div class=3D"im">> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> In a similar vein, I would love to see a $1200 steel randonneur bi=
ke, and<br>
>> being a randonneur bike of course it would be equipped with full-c=
overage<br>
>> fenders, permanent lighting front & rear (with concealed wirin=
g), a nice<br>
>> French bend in the fork, 650B 42mm tires, a leather saddle, steel =
toe clips,<br>
>> a frame-mounted pump, randonneur bars and front & rear racks.<=
br>
>> To meet that price point it would probably be a Taiwanese tig-weld=
ed<br>
>> frame<br>
<br>
</div>On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 10:47 PM, John Wood <<a href=3D"mailto:brax=
ton72@gmail.com">braxton72@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> To meet that price point, and include all the accessories that you<br>
> mentioned, it would have to be a very cheaply made frame with very low=
end<br>
> components.<br>
<br>
Or, it would have to be made by a large (bike industry definition of<br>
"large") company. =A0I think someone has already mentioned econom=
y of<br>
scale. =A0Raleigh is currently offering the Port Townsend for about a<br>
grand. =A0It comes with fenders, front rack, barcons, compact double,<br>
clips and straps. =A0There's no technical reason they couldn't have=
<br>
built this bike with 650b wheels and a different fork bend. =A0A<br>
sidewall dynamo with low-end lights could keep this under $1200. =A0With<br=
>
the current ridiculous leather saddle prices, I think they'd be hard<br=
>
pressed to include it at that price point.<br>
<br>
The Trek Belleville has all of the parts David wants, sans leather<br>
saddle and toe clips, including a dynamo hub and internal wiring for<br>
about $700. =A0It also has a single chain ring and 3-speed hub, though<br>
I'm unconvinced this configuration is significantly less expensive<br>
than a low-end compact double setup. =A0At the least, it's not $500 les=
s<br>
expensive. =A0If Trek can make a profit on that bike at that price, they<br=
>
could certainly make a profit on a similarly equipped randonneuse for<br>
$1200.<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
--<br>
Scott Loveless<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/" target=3D"_blank">http=
://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/</a><br>
=A0 =A0 __o<br>
=A0 _'\<,_<br>
=A0(*)/=A0 (*)<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
--<br>
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<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>Where did t=
he spring go?<br>Where did my hormones go?<br>Where did my energy go?<br>Wh=
ere did my go go?<br>Where did the pleasure go?<br>Where did my hair go?<br=
>
<br>-- Ray Davies<br>
<p></p>
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|
--000e0cdf49c22d1a6e04a0415b32
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 8:21 PM, David H. Diette <rollingtones@gmail.com>wrote:
> Someone mentioned that a $1000 randonneur bike, if made available to the
> masses, would be an excellent alternative to several different types of
> current models - hybrids, city bikes, certain road bikes, etc.
>
> In a similar vein, I would love to see a $1200 steel randonneur bike, and
> being a randonneur bike of course it would be equipped with full-coverage
> fenders, permanent lighting front & rear (with concealed wiring), a nice
> French bend in the fork, 650B 42mm tires, a leather saddle, steel toe clips,
> a frame-mounted pump, randonneur bars and front & rear racks.
>
> Araya has been making a production randonneur for years.
http://www.araya-kk.co.jp/bicycle/
Here's an older version that came with a generator and a light
http://www.araya-kk.co.jp/bicycle/Archive/until2009/ran_top.htm#
They also sell a similar bike under the Raleigh brand.
http://www.raleigh.jp/catalog11/30_CLS/index.htm
Unfortunately, they are only made in a few small sizes and are
next to impossible to find outside of Japan.
Jay Hartman
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<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 8:21 PM, David H.=
Diette <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:rollingtones@gmail.com">rol=
lingtones@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;=
">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">Someone mentioned that a $1000 randonneur bike, =
if made available to the masses, would be an excellent alternative to sever=
al different types of current models - hybrids, city bikes, certain road bi=
kes, etc.=A0
<div><br></div><div>In a similar vein, I would love to see a $1200 steel ra=
ndonneur bike, and being a randonneur bike of course it would be equipped w=
ith full-coverage fenders, permanent lighting front & rear (with concea=
led wiring), a nice French bend in the fork, 650B 42mm tires, a leather sad=
dle, steel toe clips, a frame-mounted pump, randonneur bars and front &=
rear racks.=A0</div>
<br></div></blockquote><div>=A0Araya has been making a production randonneu=
r for years.<br><br><a href=3D"http://www.araya-kk.co.jp/bicycle/">http://w=
ww.araya-kk.co.jp/bicycle/</a><br><br>Here's an older version that came=
with a generator and a light<br>
<br><a href=3D"http://www.araya-kk.co.jp/bicycle/Archive/until2009/ran_top.=
htm#">http://www.araya-kk.co.jp/bicycle/Archive/until2009/ran_top.htm#</a><=
br><br>They also sell=A0 a similar bike under the Raleigh brand.<br><br><a =
href=3D"http://www.raleigh.jp/catalog11/30_CLS/index.htm">http://www.raleig=
h.jp/catalog11/30_CLS/index.htm</a><br>
<br>Unfortunately, they are only made in a few small sizes and are<br>next =
to impossible to find outside of Japan.<br><br>Jay Hartman<br></div></div>
<p></p>
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|
So they make these bikes in Japan but choose not to import them? Must
think all us Americans want racing bikes like Lance.
I did notice that the geomentery is mid trail 49-50mm and not low
trail. And the biggest size is a 54.
The Salsa is a nice bike but is a high trail bike. They got part of
the way there but didn't make the full jump to low trail.
Still nothing in a Production version that meets the design
requirements.
~Mike
On Apr 6, 8:07=A0am, Jason Hartman <rjasonhart...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 8:21 PM, David H. Diette <rollingto...@gmail.com>w=
rote:
>
> > Someone mentioned that a $1000 randonneur bike, if made available to th=
e
> > masses, would be an excellent alternative to several different types of
> > current models - hybrids, city bikes, certain road bikes, etc.
>
> > In a similar vein, I would love to see a $1200 steel randonneur bike, a=
nd
> > being a randonneur bike of course it would be equipped with full-covera=
ge
> > fenders, permanent lighting front & rear (with concealed wiring), a nic=
e
> > French bend in the fork, 650B 42mm tires, a leather saddle, steel toe c=
lips,
> > a frame-mounted pump, randonneur bars and front & rear racks.
>
> > =A0Araya has been making a production randonneur for years.
>
> http://www.araya-kk.co.jp/bicycle/
>
> Here's an older version that came with a generator and a light
>
> http://www.araya-kk.co.jp/bicycle/Archive/until2009/ran_top.htm#
>
> They also sell =A0a similar bike under the Raleigh brand.
>
> http://www.raleigh.jp/catalog11/30_CLS/index.htm
>
> Unfortunately, they are only made in a few small sizes and are
> next to impossible to find outside of Japan.
>
> Jay Hartman
--=20
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|
Hi, Michael,
On Apr 6, 10:39 am, Michael_S <mikeybi...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> So they make these bikes in Japan but choose not to import them? Must
> think all us Americans want racing bikes like Lance.
We do "want" racing bikes (mtb and road), based on the sales numbers.
Or we "want" a comfort cruiser, designed for tootling around with your
kids on the MUP on the weekends.
Or, closer to home, we want a $500 1980-era lightly-used sport-tourer
and aren't willing to pay for what it would cost to make that same
bike new again (and it is far more than the factor of three inflation
gives us).
> I did notice that the geometry is mid trail 49-50mm and not low
> trail. And the biggest size is a 54.
>
The Raleigh Japan club special apparently reproduces Alex Singer's
preferred geometry in 700C machines--around 50mm trail with 25-28mm
tires, and it is sized for the market in which it is sold. No doubt,
if it were sold in the USA or Northern Europe, they'd offer bigger
frames.
If this is a machine you'd like to see here, bug your Raleigh dealer
(and mail a letter to Raleigh USA, including the Raleigh Japan model
info). Having the design on the shelf will help them make the move,
but don't hold your breath. How many Centurion Pro Tours and
Bridgestone Atlantises did we see here in the USA?
Best Regards,
Will
William M. deRosset
Fort Collins, CO
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On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 5:14 AM, Dave Mann <pinnah.dave@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/5/2011 8:21 PM, David H. Diette wrote:
>>
>> In a similar vein, I would love to see a $1200 steel randonneur bike,
>> and being a randonneur bike of course it would be equipped with
>> full-coverage fenders, permanent lighting front & rear (with concealed
>> wiring), a nice French bend in the fork, 650B 42mm tires, a leather
>> saddle, steel toe clips, a frame-mounted pump, randonneur bars and front
>> & rear racks.
>>
>> To meet that price point it would probably be a Taiwanese tig-welded
>> frame, but I think it would catch on. Of course Bicycling Magazine
>> wouldn't be able to figure it out!
>>
>> Of course the general public (and most bike shops) would need to be
>> educated on the merits of such a general-purpose machine.
>
> Rando bikes are way too specialized for my tastes. =A0IMO, they're really=
just
> as hyper-specialized as road racers and full blown touring bikes.
>
> My personal beef with the rando bike concept is it's fully integrated
> design, including things like the integrated permanent lighting you menti=
on
> and rando style racks. =A0I'll easily grant that all the things that make=
a
> rando bike a better choice for rando riding are real, honest to goodness
> improvements. Such is specialization.
I disagree with this. I use my rando bike for all kinds of riding. You
can remove the fenders if you want to put knobby tires on say. A 650B
randonneur with room for Hetres and fenders is even more versatile. A
lot of randonneurs travel with their bikes and quick connectors on the
wiring allows removal of the fenders even with integrated wiring. A
rando bike would make an excellent commuter. The front rack on a rando
bike weighs less than 200g, you could remove it too but it makes the
bike more versatile. Even if you are not using a handlebar bag you can
strap items to it.
>
> For me, general purpose means I can easily reconfigure the bike to a
> different purpose. =A0Can the bike be configured for dirt road riding? Fo=
r
> commuting? =A0For citizen level racing? For (reasonably light) loaded tou=
ring?
> For training? =A0For club rides and events?
>
A good randonneur bike can pretty much do all of that.
> --
>
> -Dave "Pinnah" Mann, Boston, MA
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
--=20
Chris Cullum
Vancouver, BC
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This is a fun excercise. I think we all agree a manufacturer could do
it fairly easily for $1200. I just fantasy-built a Rando bike like
this.
From Velo-Orange:
Rando frame kit (frame, headset, front rack, post, calipers)
Fenders, Tires, Cranks, BB, Levers, shifters, rear dyno light
Front dyno wheel, rear 105 wheel.
From elsewhere:
B&M Lyt dyno headlight, Shimano 105 FD and RD,
cables, chain, tubes, bar tape, saddle, pedals.
I'm right at $1500, and these are web retail prices.
Makes me want to have a $300 iBob bike build challenge.
Put together a nice bike in the style of your choosing. Craigslist,
ebay, recycled bike parts shops, whatever. Nothing currently owned by
you can be used. Saddle, pedals, and labor do not count toward $500
limit.
Jimmy Livengood
Seattle, WA
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Dave M. said (with numbers added in brackets),
>For me, general purpose means I can easily reconfigure the bike to a
>different purpose. [1]Can the bike be configured for dirt road riding?
>[2]For commuting? [3]For citizen level racing? [4] For (reasonably light)
loaded
>touring? [5] For training? [6]For club rides and events?
Dear Dave,
I use my 700C randonneur extensively for uses 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6. I
use my 650B "allroad" bike for uses 1, 2, 4, and (sometimes) 5 and 6
depending on my mood and the weather. I haven't raced in over twenty
years.
The 700C machine is really optimized for paved-road randonneuring,
which lies somewhere in the use 4,5,6 range. The 650B is optimized
more for harder off-pavement use and commuting. However, half my
mileage is commuting and errand-riding (5,000mi/year), and about a
quarter to a third of my total mileage is off-pavement.
Either bike is a rack-swap away from being a dedicated town bike (I
have a platform rack for the 650B), and ten minutes with a hex key
from a credit-card/light touring bike (the 700C bike has detachable
low-rider legs).
Because I won't pull the fenders on the 700C machine, I'm limited to
32mm knobbies for [1] and can't use it for [3], but without the
fenders, front rack, and generator hub, it weighs around 18.6lb
including my pedals and frame pump, which is lighter than my Columbus
SL road-racing bike from the late 1980's, and competitive with mid-
market ($3,500) modern race bikes.
The integrated randonneur design is versatile, in part, because it is
carefully optimized for high performance for what I actually do with
my bikes.
Neither bike would be very suitable for racing mountain bike events or
bikepacking without modification. I'd have to mount a lowrider rack
to my 650B machine to do real expedition touring. I am hesitant to
take the 700C machine on rocky singletrack (though it does fine on
fire roads, and the 650b is quite offroad-capable with 2" wide
tires). I'd have to pull the fenders to race in muddy conditions or
if UCI rules are being enforced (fenders are banned).
However, those are things I just don't do much at all, and I prefer to
buy a bike on the basis of what I do with it, not what I might, once
or three times over the bike's life, aspire to do with it.
Where the design falls down is in the cost of a fully-integrated bike,
and someone like Raleigh or similar could reduce that cost
significantly through mass-production. The profit margin is small on
these machines, so they probably won't.
Best Regards,
Will
William M. deRosset
Fort Collins, CO
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On Wed, 2011-04-06 at 08:00 -0700, Ken Mattina wrote:
> Here you go. No fenders though.
Or lighting.
>
>
http://www.bikeman.com/BK8214.html?utm_source=GoogleBase&utm_medium=GoogleBase&utm_campaign=GoogleBase
>
> On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 6:46 AM, Scott Loveless <sdloveless@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:21 PM, David H. Diette
> <rollingtones@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> In a similar vein, I would love to see a $1200 steel
> randonneur bike, and
> >> being a randonneur bike of course it would be equipped with
> full-coverage
> >> fenders, permanent lighting front & rear (with concealed
> wiring), a nice
> >> French bend in the fork, 650B 42mm tires, a leather saddle,
> steel toe clips,
> >> a frame-mounted pump, randonneur bars and front & rear
> racks.
> >> To meet that price point it would probably be a Taiwanese
> tig-welded
> >> frame
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 10:47 PM, John Wood
> <braxton72@gmail.com> wrote:
> > To meet that price point, and include all the accessories
> that you
> > mentioned, it would have to be a very cheaply made frame
> with very low end
> > components.
>
> Or, it would have to be made by a large (bike industry
> definition of
> "large") company. I think someone has already mentioned
> economy of
> scale. Raleigh is currently offering the Port Townsend for
> about a
> grand. It comes with fenders, front rack, barcons, compact
> double,
> clips and straps. There's no technical reason they couldn't
> have
> built this bike with 650b wheels and a different fork bend. A
> sidewall dynamo with low-end lights could keep this under
> $1200. With
> the current ridiculous leather saddle prices, I think they'd
> be hard
> pressed to include it at that price point.
>
> The Trek Belleville has all of the parts David wants, sans
> leather
> saddle and toe clips, including a dynamo hub and internal
> wiring for
> about $700. It also has a single chain ring and 3-speed hub,
> though
> I'm unconvinced this configuration is significantly less
> expensive
> than a low-end compact double setup. At the least, it's not
> $500 less
> expensive. If Trek can make a profit on that bike at that
> price, they
> could certainly make a profit on a similarly equipped
> randonneuse for
> $1200.
>
> --
> Scott Loveless
> http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/
> __o
> _'\<,_
> (*)/ (*)
>
>
> --
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>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Where did the spring go?
> Where did my hormones go?
> Where did my energy go?
> Where did my go go?
> Where did the pleasure go?
> Where did my hair go?
>
> -- Ray Davies
>
>
> --
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My understanding of the bike biz at the Big Boy level is growing dim,
but I'd say there is close to zero chance of getting any retro/niche
design from the bigger players until more than one of the Surly-like
niche players first hit an unignorable home run with it. There is no
incentive for a product manager to spec a low-demand model, and there
is little incentive for a floor-planned dealer to ask his main brands
to spec a low-demand model. Trek/Giant/Spec'l don't stay profitable by
being edgy, they stay profitable by maxing out their production with
safe, high-demand models that sell in big numbers. That inertia can
only be overcome by dealers. "Build it and they'll buy it" doesn't work.
You first need enough consumers with money to spend clamoring to buy
rando bikes from brick-and-mortar dealers, not from mail-order/web
retailers. If the dealers see a demand, they'll agitate the Surlys and
other smaller/niche mfrs for more/better rando models. When enough of
those sell, the dealers go to their bigger brands, and those ProdMgrs
may see enough proven demand to open up a whole new set of SKUs. Then
you've got a chance for a wider range of product at more affordable
prices.
I've known a bunch of product managers, who were all nice folks and
smart. You didn't find many Sky Yaegers or Bill Horners (I'm old) at
the bigger mfrs, or even at the B-/C-level. Not many rewards for an
envelope-pusher too far ahead of the curve.
Took me more than a season to get the Fuji Track made, despite Bianchi
already hitting a home run for 3 years running with their Pista. I had
to corral reps and dealers for support and push to get it done, and
still couldn't get it made with fender/rack eyelets. Couldn't get
eyelets on anything but a Touring Series. ProdMgr jokingly threatened
to return from Taiwan with a 50lb bag o' eyelets and dump them all over
my desk. "Racers won't buy bikes with eyelets." Didn't matter that
there were more non-racers actually buying them. The only dealers who
cared were in Seattle/Portland, and they weren't buying enough bikes to
make eyelets happen.
I lost hundreds of thousands of $$ of sales to Cannondale in Japan
because Trek wouldn't build me a 650c triathlon bike. Said the ProdMgr:
"Did you ever ride one? I rode a Schwinn 650c tri-bike once, and it
sucked. Squirrely as hell, beat me up even on smooth pavement." He was
spec'ing some other very nice and successful bikes for Trek at the
time. I wasn't willing to stick my neck out, my whole market was buying
fewer units than some successful US multi-store chains, so they weren't
made.
How long did it take for the Rivs and Herons and Gunnars and Surlys and
Kogswells and Somas and etc to get reasonable sport-tourers back as a
category? They showed the market existed, then Fuji, Jamis, Raleigh,
etc stepped up, then the Big Boys took note...
Cheers,
Paul Brodek
Hillsdale, NJ, USA
Quoting WMdeR <wmderosset@gmail.com>:
> Hi, Michael,
>
> On Apr 6, 10:39 am, Michael_S <mikeybi...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> > So they make these bikes in Japan but choose not to import them? Must
> > think all us Americans want racing bikes like Lance.
>
> We do "want" racing bikes (mtb and road), based on the sales numbers.
> Or we "want" a comfort cruiser, designed for tootling around with your
> kids on the MUP on the weekends.
>
> If this is a machine you'd like to see here, bug your Raleigh dealer
> (and mail a letter to Raleigh USA, including the Raleigh Japan model
> info). Having the design on the shelf will help them make the move,
> but don't hold your breath. How many Centurion Pro Tours and
> Bridgestone Atlantises did we see here in the USA?
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On 4/6/2011 4:07 PM, WMdeR wrote:
> The 700C machine is really optimized for paved-road randonneuring,
> which lies somewhere in the use 4,5,6 range. The 650B is optimized
> more for harder off-pavement use and commuting.
Will,
As you might suspect, we're almost entirely in agreement.
This post will be too long to be effective, so let me start with the
bullet points.
1) I don't think a $1200 Rando bike is going to become the bike of the
masses when $400-$600 flat barred 700c hybrid bikes do most it and do so
with the flat bars preferred by novice riders.
2) Bikes that have the geometries, frame materials and tire clearances
of rando bikes are as versatile as you say.
3) I think a more general and non-integrated sport tourer would have a
better shot at succeeding.
Here's the longer version....
1) Back in the 70s, the popular sport tourers covered a wide range of
bikes from cheap gas pipe bikes with junk components to fully double
butted cr-mo bikes with great components. The low to mid range bikes
often had "suicide levers" because the average rider hated the drop bar
position. Today, I think it's clear that the 700c flat bar hybrid is
the heir to the utility niche that was once filled by the low end sport
tourer - and arguably much better so than any drop bar bike could. If
we're talking about any $1200 road bike with drop bars, I think we need
to understand that we're talking about a bike for more committed cyclist
right out of the gate. And that's fine. We just need to dial back our
enthusiasm in what part of the market such a bike would appeal to. It
won't be the bike of the masses.
2) The thing about the rando bikes you love and the sport tourers I
love is they share essentially the same geometries and frame designs.
73 parallel, 6cm or so of rake, chainstays in the 44cm range and
relatively light standard gauge tubing. Incredibly versatile bikes!!
And nothing like it in the production world currently. The Somas,
Surlys, Gunnars, Waterfords, Salsa and the like might call their bikes
sport bikes, but they have significantly less rake and shorter stays.
The main manufacturers? Nothing. The closest we can get is with small
and expensive boutique makers like Pelican, Boulder/Herse and
Velo-Orange. What's maddening, is that the big firms make scads of
steel road bikes in the $1000 or less range. We could easily have bikes
with a more versatile geometries but we don't. What's even more
maddening about this is that so many of them are marketing these bikes
with the marketing story of the versatile, neo-retro non-racing bike.
It's just as if they didn't know of the existence of a better design
template. It's a real shame. And note that adding integrated rando
accessories isn't going to fix anything. The Raleigh Port Towsend is a
great example. The geometry just isn't there. We don't need to agitate
for more integrated rando bikes with lousy geometries. We need basic
bikes that use the geometries of rando bikes (and older classic sport
tourers).
3) I actually think several of the niche makers (Surly, Soma, Rawland,
VO, Kogswell?) are on the right track with their marketing of frames and
basic bikes. I've come to believe that the US bike market is heavily
influenced by the US car/motorcycle market and the idea of a base model
that can be easily modified to suit the vision of the owner is well
established in the US psyche. It was most clear in the old hot rod
ethic, which lives on in the "tuner" world of car mods. In the
motorcycle world Harley and Star (Yamaha) have this nailed down. There
are base models and all sorts of kits to modify things. The fully
integrated rando bike is one of many visions that people have but there
are lots of others that could be realized on the same basic frame design
of your rando bikes: flat barred city bikes, commuters, light tourers,
light cyclo-cross. All of these could result in different "builds" of
the same base bike.
IMO, Trek, Raleigh and Fuji are surviving brands that could prettily
easily pull this off. They have the legacy to market for the neo-retro
thing (Raleigh is there, Fuji has dabbled, Trek is brain dead on this).
If I were a PM, I would be writing requirements along the line of:
+ Should work easily with the 2 most popular 3rd party fenders
+ Should work easily with the 5 most popular front and rear touring racks
+ Should work easily with 3 most popular lighting systems
+ Should work easily with the 2 most popular rando front bag/rack systems
+ Should allow for easy conversion to flat bars
I'd specify marketing literature showing the basic bike built out and
modified as:
+ Touring build
+ Commuting build
+ Rando build
+ Flat bar city bike build
+ Cross build
+ Citizen racing/triathlon build
Offer the bike in classic steel at 3 price points with different levels
of components.
We're getting so close...
--
-Dave "Pinnah" Mann, Boston, MA
==================================================================
DAVE'S NORDIC BACKCOUNTRY SKIING PAGE
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/dirtbag.html
------------------------------------------------------------------
THE BIKE GEOMETRY PROJECT - A community effort to document geometries
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/dirtbag-bikes/geometry-project.html
==================================================================
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> 1) I don't think a $1200 Rando bike is going to become the bike of the
> masses when $400-$600 flat barred 700c hybrid bikes do most it and do so
> with the flat bars preferred by novice riders.
>
> 2) Bikes that have the geometries, frame materials and tire clearances
> of rando bikes are as versatile as you say.
>
> 3) I think a more general and non-integrated sport tourer would have a
> better shot at succeeding.
>
Dear Dave,
I think you and I are actually more or less completely in agreement.
The biggest difference between a fully integrated modern randonneuring
bike and a sport-tourer is in how well/thoroughly installed the
"accessories" are and whether or not they're considered "accessories"
or an integral part of the bike. I prefer the latter approach and
strongly believe it produces a more useful product, over a broad range
of practical applications. However, from a production perspective,
the former approach is more profitable and easier, and probably is
easier to sell at the POS.
Now, good design will lower the bar to integration (fenderlines,
threaded eyelets and stays, appropriate tire clearances, and the fit/
tube spec/geometry has to be appropriate), and many of the sport-
tourers didn't work through the details (and they are details, just
important ones) that make the design more functional while retaining
its flexibility.
Modern "club/sport" bikes tend to be racing bikes with an extra
centimeter or so of clearance under the brake arch and fail the basic/
fit/tube spec/geometry test, let alone getting the fittings right.
Most ordinary people don't even notice geometry tables, just how their
bike rides, so how is it that the PMs can't work this out? What is the
deep conservatism that keeps them clinging to racing designs for non-
racing bikes? Don't they test different geometries?
Hell, Mike Kone and I did for Mike's Boulder Bicycle project, and that
investment has to be amortized over a small production volume
(granted, I didn't charge for my time, so it was more a material cost,
making a few frames on overhead and mix-n-match forks), and it
substantially improved the bike designs before they went into
production. It isn't that hard, but it does take time, and one has to
ride the bike over its full intended range of applicability--for a
sport-tourer or an integrated cyclotouring machine, that's a lot of
ground.
I'm confident that we'll not see fully integrated bikes from the major
manufacturers--the increment in what folks are willing to pay doesn't
cover the increment in cost. They're labor-intensive bikes, and labor
is expensive. Most cyclists don't want to fool with their bikes much,
so the integrated machine ends up either being a high-end niche item
or a DIY fantasy for enthusiasts like this list attracts.
> We don't need to agitate
> for more integrated rando bikes with lousy geometries. We need basic
> bikes that use the geometries of rando bikes (and older classic sport
> tourers).
Actually, Dave, I worry about this problem. French/recent custom
cyclotouring bikes (and integrated randonneuring bikes in particular)
have a style and a look about them that is pretty easy to ape with
"accessories" without getting any of the basic design things that make
that look functional. Clamping a front rack and a big front bag to a
cyclocross or road-racing bike geometry doesn't work well.
It is reminiscent of the "handlebar bags ruin a bike's handling"
argument I knew from the early to mid 1980's, when touring was the
thing, but bikes had lost the front end geometry needed to make a
handlebar bag-equipped bike work well. I grew up after the heyday of
the sport-tourer (I was ten in 1980), and I hated, hated handlebar
bags for touring on my racing-geometry bikes. I didn't understand why
they were sold. They were even worse on my mountain bike. I
eventually mounted one on my touring bike out of necessity/desperation
(disliked what it did to my bike handling, but I needed a map holder
etc) for randonneuring, until I got a bike with a suitable geometry.
It was a revelation.
Best Regards,
Will
William M. deRosset
Fort Collins, CO
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